Discussion:
The Zwarte Piet controversy makes it to Ottawa.
(too old to reply)
Punk
2017-11-30 04:34:45 UTC
Permalink
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834

I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.

Punk
l***@fl.it
2017-11-30 11:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Punk
You're correct in that it came up for discussion in Halifax but the
years have passed and I can't remember what transpired. JVG surely
will :)
HRM Resident
2017-11-30 13:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@fl.it
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Punk
You're correct in that it came up for discussion in Halifax but the
years have passed and I can't remember what transpired. JVG surely
will :)
Society changes. We stopped having minstrel shows many years ago.
We did because our societal attitude toward them changed.

I don't know the details if the Dutch celebration referenced, but
no tradition is immortal. We live in a dynamic, adaptive world, not a
regressive "hang on to the past no matter what" position. Some things
need to change as we evolve. Might this be one of them?
--
HRM Resident
jvangurp
2017-12-02 11:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@fl.it
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Punk
You're correct in that it came up for discussion in Halifax but the
years have passed and I can't remember what transpired. JVG surely
will :)
That was when NS Liberal MLA Joachim Stroink tweeted a phone of himself with a Zwaarte Piet at some local Dutch Christmas party. (Here's the new piece - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/joachim-stroink-apologizes-for-zwarte-piet-blackface-photo-1.2447494)

Yeah sure the Dutch were a strong and powerful maritime power and have many accomplishments and a nice country and all that, but the Zwaarte Piet tradition has got to go - it's awful! They pride themselves on liberalism and openness but there are just as many thick-skulled old men there as here (that's the biggest defender of the character). It's baffling that Stroink didn't see the offensive nature of the photo here in Canada. How could he not understand that it doesn't translate here in our community.

Anyway... off to read the more recent article.

IanC - you missed my whole retirement countdown - that was exciting for all! lol

Cheers,
John
Jack
2017-12-20 16:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by jvangurp
Post by l***@fl.it
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Punk
You're correct in that it came up for discussion in Halifax but the
years have passed and I can't remember what transpired. JVG surely
will :)
That was when NS Liberal MLA Joachim Stroink tweeted a phone of himself with a Zwaarte Piet at some local Dutch Christmas party. (Here's the new piece - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/joachim-stroink-apologizes-for-zwarte-piet-blackface-photo-1.2447494)
Yeah sure the Dutch were a strong and powerful maritime power and have many accomplishments and a nice country and all that, but the Zwaarte Piet tradition has got to go - it's awful! They pride themselves on liberalism and openness but there are just as many thick-skulled old men there as here (that's the biggest defender of the character). It's baffling that Stroink didn't see the offensive nature of the photo here in Canada. How could he not understand that it doesn't translate here in our community.
Anyway... off to read the more recent article.
IanC - you missed my whole retirement countdown - that was exciting for all! lol
Cheers,
John
Grow the fuck up...its a COSTUME
HRM Resident
2017-11-30 13:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Punk
What if they used a big, green frog instead of a black guy?
--
HRM Resident
Mike Spencer
2017-12-01 02:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
What if they used a big, green frog instead of a black guy?
Sorry, Pepe the Frog (q.g.) is holding the "big green frog" turf for
the neo-nazis. Kermit is going to have to attend sensitivity training
classes and get a neutral-toned bleach & dye job. (While we're at it,
that pig is probably too aggressively pink and will make persons of
(any other) colour feel bad. Sensitivity training for her, too.)

Jeez, I'm so shpxvat (small-l) liberal that my dear old dad, who grew
up before WW I, would say I was a commie or something. But I hate to
admit it because of the horde of identity politics, postmodernist and
assorted other fruitcakes [1] that share the label.

[1] With apologies to real Christmas^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Holiday
fruitcake. :-\
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Mike Small
2017-11-30 16:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
--
Mike Small
***@sdf.org
HRM Resident
2017-11-30 17:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
Every dog has it's day. In the 1700s the Dutch were arguably the
most powerful country in Europe with tentacles stretching as far as they
could travel. These things come and go.

Ask the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Ottomans and now, the
UK. Most countries in Europe had a go at being the "boss" for a few
decades . . . even a century . . . and then it's someone else's turn.
The UK is in decline now after over a century of being number 1. The
others lasted a bit longer or shorter, but "empires" don't last forever.

I highly doubt the Dutch held a monopoly on racism and being harsh
rulers of their colonies.

We are a tribal species. We like to fight and go to war. At least
we have in all recorded history, and after about 75 years of relative
peace, it seems like everyone forgot the ~60 million deaths in WW II and
are ready to try to top that number.
--
HRM Resident
l***@fl.it
2017-11-30 17:24:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:03:53 -0400, HRM Resident
Post by HRM Resident
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
Every dog has it's day. In the 1700s the Dutch were arguably the
most powerful country in Europe with tentacles stretching as far as they
could travel. These things come and go.
Ask the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Ottomans and now, the
UK. Most countries in Europe had a go at being the "boss" for a few
decades . . . even a century . . . and then it's someone else's turn.
The UK is in decline now after over a century of being number 1. The
others lasted a bit longer or shorter, but "empires" don't last forever.
The UK declined after WWII and the USA made everyone believe they were
top dog - but everyone goes past their Best Before date and Trump sure
makes it look like this is the top of the slide for the USA :)

BTW, on that subject, my cousin has a new book out Collusion, and was
interviewed on the Current this a.m., you might find it interesting,
second item in.
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts/current-affairs-information/the-current/
Post by HRM Resident
I highly doubt the Dutch held a monopoly on racism and being harsh
rulers of their colonies.
We are a tribal species. We like to fight and go to war. At least
we have in all recorded history, and after about 75 years of relative
peace, it seems like everyone forgot the ~60 million deaths in WW II and
are ready to try to top that number.
Mike Small
2017-11-30 18:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
Every dog has it's day. In the 1700s the Dutch were arguably the
most powerful country in Europe with tentacles stretching as far as
they could travel. These things come and go.
Ask the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Ottomans and now,
the UK. Most countries in Europe had a go at being the "boss" for a
few decades . . . even a century . . . and then it's someone else's
turn. The UK is in decline now after over a century of being number 1.
The others lasted a bit longer or shorter, but "empires" don't last
forever.
I highly doubt the Dutch held a monopoly on racism and being harsh
rulers of their colonies.
Whataboutism? My statement implied no monopoly. Like Punk, I have a
somewhat favourable impression of Dutch people generally, my brother
having married one and my having worked with some at my last job. I'm
only saying if one of them said to me, "never mind that black face
thing, it's harmless. We're Dutch. We're quirky and strange. Here, have
some of our nice bread." Well, not sure that would satisfy me, since as
you point out they have the same oppressive colonizing history that the
other past European powers have, and we know those powers have a legacy
of racism runing into the present that in part justified the conquests
then and now perhaps justifies not making proper amends for them.

So, looking at the image on that link and thinking what the hell is
that, I look up the name in wikipedia and soon discover that...

1. its history and associations are not entirely innocent

and

2. it's somewhat controversial in Holland now. Some number of Dutch
don't need Canadians, the Caribbean Union, or Solidarity Ottawa to tell
them this is a problematic image but have come up with that idea on
their own and feel quite embarrassed.
Post by HRM Resident
We are a tribal species. We like to fight and go to war. At
least we have in all recorded history, and after about 75 years of
relative peace, it seems like everyone forgot the ~60 million deaths
in WW II and are ready to try to top that number.
Yes, we're horrible. So we would seem to be in agreement.

But it is always amusing to watch people react in anger when others take
offense with more or less the reaction, "you shall not be offended by
that. It's not offensive. I know because I didn't mean it that way." So
not so nice are we, and not likely to be one of the longer lived
species, but at least our spiral into oblivion has these moments of
entertainment.
--
Mike Small
***@sdf.org
IanC
2017-12-01 10:10:35 UTC
Permalink
It's nice to see the saplings of conversation growing in hfx.gen after several years of nothing noteworthy to read

Note to punk ur posts don't show to me who uses google

Note to everyone else Please don't bother telling me what a moron I am for accessing the group through google
l***@fl.it
2017-12-01 11:37:30 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 02:10:35 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
It's nice to see the saplings of conversation growing in hfx.gen after several years of nothing noteworthy to read
Note to punk ur posts don't show to me who uses google
Note to everyone else Please don't bother telling me what a moron I am for accessing the group through google
It's because he's XnoArchive - I finally stopped using mine so JVG
could see my posts.

Ian, I emailed you re our recent HNO, you should have been there, it
was great fun. Dan made it even though he had just smashed his leg
all to hell and was going for surgery!

We are planning on having another one in 2018, particularly if Mike 2
pays a visit to Halifax.
HRM Resident
2017-12-01 14:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanC
It's nice to see the saplings of conversation growing in hfx.gen after several years of nothing noteworthy to read
Note to punk ur posts don't show to me who uses google
Note to everyone else Please don't bother telling me what a moron I am for accessing the group through google
Welcome back, Ian! Yes, there is a little life here . . . still
disagreements as well, but no vile cursing and "prisoner" style
interrogation questions.

There are only a few left posting, but it's been civil. We
actually seem to be able to discuss and disagree without getting nasty.
If we can get a half a dozen people like yourself to check in now and
then, perhaps this group can rise from the ashes.
--
HRM Resident
l***@fl.it
2017-12-01 14:22:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:14:59 -0400, HRM Resident
Post by HRM Resident
Post by IanC
It's nice to see the saplings of conversation growing in hfx.gen after several years of nothing noteworthy to read
Note to punk ur posts don't show to me who uses google
Note to everyone else Please don't bother telling me what a moron I am for accessing the group through google
Welcome back, Ian! Yes, there is a little life here . . . still
disagreements as well, but no vile cursing and "prisoner" style
interrogation questions.
There are only a few left posting, but it's been civil. We
actually seem to be able to discuss and disagree without getting nasty.
If we can get a half a dozen people like yourself to check in now and
then, perhaps this group can rise from the ashes.
Agreed.
IanC
2017-12-05 12:25:35 UTC
Permalink
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !

I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him

While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
HRM Resident
2017-12-05 13:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
That's too bad, Ian. Wish we could get 5-6 regular posters. James
left on 24 Dec 2016 and hasn't posted since. He was contacted and his
rationale was he'd discussed about everything to death AND he felt if he
returned it would bring back the RWAs. I wouldn't hold my breath.

I also enjoyed his posts and debating with him, but I doubt he'll
re-surface. If there's any good to all of this, the RWAs seem to have
lost interest as well. Such is life . . . things change.
--
HRM Resident
l***@fl.it
2017-12-05 13:53:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:25:35 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
It was perfectly possible for me to just pass by James posts once he
got into the ranting stage :) I only disliked it when he played
right into the RWAs paws.
HRM Resident
2017-12-06 12:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@fl.it
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:25:35 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
It was perfectly possible for me to just pass by James posts once he
got into the ranting stage :) I only disliked it when he played
right into the RWAs paws.
I think we all found the long threads that quoted pages of previous
context somewhat cumbersome, but all and all James was a good
contributor. I was surprised he gave up after years of debating . . .
he would NOT let those RWAs off the hook and he was better at arguing
than they ever thought of . . . but seeing as he was making fools of
them daily (and they knew it), I suppose he felt his job was finished
last year. For that I thank him.

Perhaps someone who has his address could pass this thread on to
him in the hopes he might come back and say hello.
--
HRM Resident
jvangurp
2017-12-06 19:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by l***@fl.it
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:25:35 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
It was perfectly possible for me to just pass by James posts once he
got into the ranting stage :) I only disliked it when he played
right into the RWAs paws.
I think we all found the long threads that quoted pages of previous
context somewhat cumbersome, but all and all James was a good
contributor. I was surprised he gave up after years of debating . . .
he would NOT let those RWAs off the hook and he was better at arguing
than they ever thought of . . . but seeing as he was making fools of
them daily (and they knew it), I suppose he felt his job was finished
last year. For that I thank him.
Perhaps someone who has his address could pass this thread on to
him in the hopes he might come back and say hello.
--
HRM Resident
He comments on my Facebook posts from time to time.
John
l***@fl.it
2017-12-06 20:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by jvangurp
Post by HRM Resident
Post by l***@fl.it
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:25:35 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
It was perfectly possible for me to just pass by James posts once he
got into the ranting stage :) I only disliked it when he played
right into the RWAs paws.
I think we all found the long threads that quoted pages of previous
context somewhat cumbersome, but all and all James was a good
contributor. I was surprised he gave up after years of debating . . .
he would NOT let those RWAs off the hook and he was better at arguing
than they ever thought of . . . but seeing as he was making fools of
them daily (and they knew it), I suppose he felt his job was finished
last year. For that I thank him.
Perhaps someone who has his address could pass this thread on to
him in the hopes he might come back and say hello.
--
HRM Resident
He comments on my Facebook posts from time to time.
John
I emailed him :)
jvangurp
2017-12-06 19:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by IanC
It's nice of you to welcome me back but I've never left unlike the rest of you !
I have views somewhat different on the rest of you as to what I enjoy from the group James was one of my favourite posters whereas most of the current posters have bitterly complained to and about him
While I still devour opinion on the net I find little to comment on these days so don't expect a daily dose of my wit and sarcasm but I may add my 2 cents once in a while
Good to know.
John
Punk
2017-12-09 05:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.

Punk
Harvey Fudd
2017-12-09 17:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.
Punk
That statement could be made about any nationality. Got something positive
to say specifically about the Dutch? Take your time. I’ll wait.

Carter
Punk
2017-12-12 02:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.
Punk
That statement could be made about any nationality. Got something positive
to say specifically about the Dutch? Take your time. I’ll wait.
Carter
I disagree. Very few nationalities emerged from medieval times and reshaped the
world the way the Dutch and a very few other did.

Punk
Harvey Fudd
2017-12-12 19:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.
Punk
That statement could be made about any nationality. Got something positive
to say specifically about the Dutch? Take your time. I’ll wait.
Carter
I disagree. Very few nationalities emerged from medieval times and reshaped the
world the way the Dutch and a very few other did.
Punk
Did you finish school? Did you somehow avoid history or forget what you
were taught? Suggest you read up on the British, Spanish, Portuguese,
French as well as the Dutch.

Carter
Punk
2017-12-14 05:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.
Punk
That statement could be made about any nationality. Got something positive
to say specifically about the Dutch? Take your time. I’ll wait.
Carter
I disagree. Very few nationalities emerged from medieval times and reshaped the
world the way the Dutch and a very few other did.
Punk
Did you finish school? Did you somehow avoid history or forget what you
were taught? Suggest you read up on the British, Spanish, Portuguese,
French as well as the Dutch.
Carter
Basic comprehension wasn't you're strong suite in elementary school I would
wager. You just prattled off the list of nations I meant when I stated "very few
others" I though that was understood by most with a basic knowledge of history.


Punk
Harvey Fudd
2017-12-14 13:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Harvey Fudd
Post by Punk
Post by Mike Small
Post by Punk
I remember some years back this discussion happening in Halifax.
I don't recall the outcome. Maybe JVG can fill me in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/black-pete-dutch-ottawa-1.4424834
I have a big problem with people hailing from third world shitholes making
up meanings in their head about what long held traditions mean and seeking
to eliminate them. If the Dutch who are an exemplary people and nation if there
ever was one say it's all good, then that's all I need.
Oh yeah, cause the Dutch are so free of racism and have such a kind
colonial history in Africa.
The Dutch survived and thrived within the times at hand. The Dutch are the
people they are today because of their history and culture.
Punk
That statement could be made about any nationality. Got something positive
to say specifically about the Dutch? Take your time. I’ll wait.
Carter
I disagree. Very few nationalities emerged from medieval times and reshaped the
world the way the Dutch and a very few other did.
Punk
Did you finish school? Did you somehow avoid history or forget what you
were taught? Suggest you read up on the British, Spanish, Portuguese,
French as well as the Dutch.
Carter
Basic comprehension wasn't you're strong suite in elementary school I would
wager. You just prattled off the list of nations I meant when I stated "very few
others" I though that was understood by most with a basic knowledge of history.
Punk
I merely questioned why you were putting the Dutch on such a pedestal.
Canada was founded by the British and French. Why do you not respect our
founders and praise a country that has little to do with us?

You seem angry. Personal problems interfering with your memory of grade
school?

Carter
HRM Resident
2017-12-14 15:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harvey Fudd
snip<
You seem angry. Personal problems interfering with your memory of grade
school?
Carter
Punk,

That poster is not Carter. There were unverified rumours here that
Carter passed away last year. Even if he is alive, that post is coming
from a cell phone and from a different usenet provider. Carter used a
computer and Eternal September.

I don't really care very much what goes on here . . . just pointing
out that you are being trolled by a Carter impersonator.

BTW, having been to all the countries you and "Carter" were
discussing, I find them all equally great and over the centuries they
all have made the world a better place. I find it hard to pick one in
particular that was/is the "best" as the world is a very dynamic place.

Our education system favours the British, but historical
"self-bias" is to be expected in any country. I did learn a ton about
the Dutch when I spent 17 days there a few years ago. They certainly
were a military and economic force to be reckoned with several hundred
years ago whilst Henry VIII was playing musical wives!
--
HRM Resident
IanC
2017-12-15 12:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Interesting. I miss the whole conversation because neither show up on google. Perhaps I need to find a better way to view the group
l***@fl.it
2017-12-15 12:51:24 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 04:34:48 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
Interesting. I miss the whole conversation because neither show up on google. Perhaps I need to find a better way to view the group
I use Agent - I believe there is a free edition one can try but I am
way back on build 5 (I think) so although it was about $18 I have
certainly had my moneys worth. This group is starting to rebuild but
Agent gives you access to millions it seems like when you are trying
to find one :)
HRM Resident
2017-12-15 13:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@fl.it
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 04:34:48 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
Interesting. I miss the whole conversation because neither show up on google. Perhaps I need to find a better way to view the group
I use Agent - I believe there is a free edition one can try but I am
way back on build 5 (I think) so although it was about $18 I have
certainly had my moneys worth. This group is starting to rebuild but
Agent gives you access to millions it seems like when you are trying
to find one :)
You can also configure Thunderbird (either on Windows or Linux) to
act as a Usenet client. It's free and the set-up is simple . . . it's
written and supported by Mozilla, the ones who look after Firefox.

I never used Google to look at Usenet messages so I don't know why
it deletes some of them. Maybe because someone in the thread has the
no-archive flag set? Just a guess.
--
HRM Resident
l***@fl.it
2017-12-15 14:25:53 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:16:11 -0400, HRM Resident
Post by HRM Resident
Post by l***@fl.it
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 04:34:48 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
Interesting. I miss the whole conversation because neither show up on google. Perhaps I need to find a better way to view the group
I use Agent - I believe there is a free edition one can try but I am
way back on build 5 (I think) so although it was about $18 I have
certainly had my moneys worth. This group is starting to rebuild but
Agent gives you access to millions it seems like when you are trying
to find one :)
You can also configure Thunderbird (either on Windows or Linux) to
act as a Usenet client. It's free and the set-up is simple . . . it's
written and supported by Mozilla, the ones who look after Firefox.
I never used Google to look at Usenet messages so I don't know why
it deletes some of them. Maybe because someone in the thread has the
no-archive flag set? Just a guess.
Yes, I used to use that but stopped when JV-G complained :)
HRM Resident
2017-12-15 14:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@fl.it
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:16:11 -0400, HRM Resident
Post by HRM Resident
Post by l***@fl.it
On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 04:34:48 -0800 (PST), IanC
Post by IanC
Interesting. I miss the whole conversation because neither show up on google. Perhaps I need to find a better way to view the group
I use Agent - I believe there is a free edition one can try but I am
way back on build 5 (I think) so although it was about $18 I have
certainly had my moneys worth. This group is starting to rebuild but
Agent gives you access to millions it seems like when you are trying
to find one :)
You can also configure Thunderbird (either on Windows or Linux) to
act as a Usenet client. It's free and the set-up is simple . . . it's
written and supported by Mozilla, the ones who look after Firefox.
I never used Google to look at Usenet messages so I don't know why
it deletes some of them. Maybe because someone in the thread has the
no-archive flag set? Just a guess.
Yes, I used to use that but stopped when JV-G complained :)
I think it was a good idea originally, but my understanding is that
many Usenet servers now ignore it . . . proving the point that once you
put something on the Internet, it's almost always there for good in 2017.
--
HRM Resident
Punk
2017-12-20 04:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by Harvey Fudd
snip<
You seem angry. Personal problems interfering with your memory of grade
school?
Carter
Punk,
That poster is not Carter. There were unverified rumours here that
Carter passed away last year. Even if he is alive, that post is coming
from a cell phone and from a different usenet provider. Carter used a
computer and Eternal September.
I don't really care very much what goes on here . . . just pointing
out that you are being trolled by a Carter impersonator.
BTW, having been to all the countries you and "Carter" were
discussing, I find them all equally great and over the centuries they
all have made the world a better place. I find it hard to pick one in
particular that was/is the "best" as the world is a very dynamic place.
Our education system favours the British, but historical
"self-bias" is to be expected in any country. I did learn a ton about
the Dutch when I spent 17 days there a few years ago. They certainly
were a military and economic force to be reckoned with several hundred
years ago whilst Henry VIII was playing musical wives!
I figured that out first thing HRM. The real Carter was condescending
but in a different way. lol

I guess my point is enough with the apologies, brow beating, and ripping
down statues and traditions. Good grief the communist couldn't do
a better job. I've been following the Cornwallis debate in Nova Scotia. In
Ontario it 's Ryerson who's now the boogeyman. These people did great
things during the times at hand. And so did the nations discussed.

Punk
l***@fl.it
2017-12-20 10:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
I guess my point is enough with the apologies, brow beating, and ripping
down statues and traditions. Good grief the communist couldn't do
a better job. I've been following the Cornwallis debate in Nova Scotia. In
Ontario it 's Ryerson who's now the boogeyman. These people did great
things during the times at hand. And so did the nations discussed.
Punk
I've often wondered how much satisfaction a person gets out of pulling
down statues, or receiving an apology for this or that, it's likely
very fleeting.

The recent brouhaha over the woman not receiving a liver because she
hasn't been sober for six months, I believe that ruling is fair
enough. I wanted to donate a kidney to a friend, in the end couldn't
because some levels of mine were too low but I can't begin to tell you
all the tests I had to go through in order to reach that decision. I
don't think its fair to push for a liver if there is no sign you are
not taking it seriously enough to quit drinking. I believe she said
it wasn't drink but Ibruprophen, whatever.
HRM Resident
2017-12-20 14:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Punk
Post by HRM Resident
Post by Harvey Fudd
snip<
You seem angry. Personal problems interfering with your memory of grade
school?
Carter
Punk,
That poster is not Carter. There were unverified rumours here that
Carter passed away last year. Even if he is alive, that post is coming
from a cell phone and from a different usenet provider. Carter used a
computer and Eternal September.
I don't really care very much what goes on here . . . just pointing
out that you are being trolled by a Carter impersonator.
BTW, having been to all the countries you and "Carter" were
discussing, I find them all equally great and over the centuries they
all have made the world a better place. I find it hard to pick one in
particular that was/is the "best" as the world is a very dynamic place.
Our education system favours the British, but historical
"self-bias" is to be expected in any country. I did learn a ton about
the Dutch when I spent 17 days there a few years ago. They certainly
were a military and economic force to be reckoned with several hundred
years ago whilst Henry VIII was playing musical wives!
I figured that out first thing HRM. The real Carter was condescending
but in a different way. lol
I guess my point is enough with the apologies, brow beating, and ripping
down statues and traditions. Good grief the communist couldn't do
a better job. I've been following the Cornwallis debate in Nova Scotia. In
Ontario it 's Ryerson who's now the boogeyman. These people did great
things during the times at hand. And so did the nations discussed.
Punk
Agreed! While by today's standards some of the things done were
horrible, that was then and this is now. If we go through all the
history books and judge actions from the past based on today's
standards, we will almost certainly be wrong in our conclusions. Why?
Because we weren't there, and neither were the people who wrote the
history books.

I don't know what prompted Cornwallis to do what he did. I don't
know what Ryerson did to get on the list, even. Whatever happened
200-300 years ago is impossible for us to understand . . . maybe there
was justification and maybe there was not. Either way, all we have now
is multi-generational descendants arguing and fighting over things that
happened before their grandparents were born.

Applying the standards of Canada in 2017 to actions that happened
in 1750 is silly. Everyone who would know what really happened, and
why, are long dead.

All that is happening today is people with too much spare time on
their hands are trying to dig up old bones. Instead of fighting over
statues, maybe they ought to direct their energy toward charity.
--
HRM Resident
Mike Small
2017-12-20 16:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by Punk
I guess my point is enough with the apologies, brow beating, and ripping
down statues and traditions. Good grief the communist couldn't do
a better job. I've been following the Cornwallis debate in Nova Scotia. In
Ontario it 's Ryerson who's now the boogeyman. These people did great
things during the times at hand. And so did the nations discussed.
Punk
Agreed! While by today's standards some of the things done were
horrible, that was then and this is now. If we go through all the
history books and judge actions from the past based on today's
standards, we will almost certainly be wrong in our conclusions. Why?
Because we weren't there, and neither were the people who wrote the
history books.
I don't know what prompted Cornwallis to do what he did. I don't
know what Ryerson did to get on the list, even. Whatever happened
200-300 years ago is impossible for us to understand . . . maybe there
was justification and maybe there was not. Either way, all we have
now is multi-generational descendants arguing and fighting over things
that happened before their grandparents were born.
Applying the standards of Canada in 2017 to actions that happened
in 1750 is silly. Everyone who would know what really happened, and
why, are long dead.
I would disagree on this point. 1750 is not before written records, so
there is material for historians and those who would read them or
popularize their research to work with. So a plausible value to debating
tearing down the statues is to generate interest in this history, and
the history is obviously relevant it only being from a little more than
100 years before Canada was formed as a country, with Canada's worse
problems still having to do with the treatment of its original
inhabitants, and with Canada being a very new nation lacking any major
political revolutions since. I'll leave the argument there because I
know the history only poorly, not much beyond that movie you can watch
on the Citadel. What's an engaging history book for early Halifax,
ideally going up into Joseph Howe's time? Did Pierre Berton write
anything?

As far as applying the standards of today to the 18th century, I've been
reading Thomas Paine and John Locke in preparation for applying for
U.S. citizenship. Based on their writing my feeling is that the moral
thought of that time was not below today's standards and perhaps was
above them. For instance, Paine wrote against slavery before the
American Revolution and following it against the Federalists alien
sedition act and forming standing armies based on trumped up fear of the
French. When I still lived in Canada, in contrast, my friend was no
where near that charitable to the French and lets not even get into how
many feel about Muslims (or communists, still, apparently).
--
Mike Small
***@sdf.org
l***@fl.it
2017-12-20 19:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:57:58 -0400, HRM Resident
Post by HRM Resident
Agreed! While by today's standards some of the things done were
horrible, that was then and this is now. If we go through all the
history books and judge actions from the past based on today's
standards, we will almost certainly be wrong in our conclusions. Why?
Because we weren't there, and neither were the people who wrote the
history books.
I don't know what prompted Cornwallis to do what he did. I don't
know what Ryerson did to get on the list, even. Whatever happened
200-300 years ago is impossible for us to understand . . . maybe there
was justification and maybe there was not. Either way, all we have now
is multi-generational descendants arguing and fighting over things that
happened before their grandparents were born.
As I understand it the French convinced the MM to sweep down on what
later became Dartmouth and murder as many settlers as possible in
their sleep, a la Glen Coe and the murder of MacDonalds. However I
did find this, which is slightly different but back then it was not
exactly unusual for someone like Cornwallis to then issue a bounty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Dartmouth_(1749)
Post by HRM Resident
Applying the standards of Canada in 2017 to actions that happened
in 1750 is silly. Everyone who would know what really happened, and
why, are long dead.
You're right, today it would instantly be on Fools Book, fake or
otherwise :)
Post by HRM Resident
All that is happening today is people with too much spare time on
their hands are trying to dig up old bones. Instead of fighting over
statues, maybe they ought to direct their energy toward charity.
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