Discussion:
Afterlife - from Quora
(too old to reply)
James Warren
2024-04-12 11:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Barry Goldberg

Author of the "Common Sense Atheism" series of booksMar 25
Is there any scientific proof that after life, there is no heaven
or hell?

Well, yes. In fact there is a simple and blindingly-obvious
proof, but it’s not the sort of proof that many people are willing
to accept since it contradicts with their childhood indoctrination
and/or conflicts with what they really, really want to be true.

Before I present the proof, however, there are two important
things that you need to keep in mind:


The complete and utter lack of any consistent, objective evidence
for an afterlife is, in and of itself, evidence against an afterlife.
Not proof mind, you, but certainly evidence.

Seriously, if you don’t have any good evidence for an afterlife
in the first place, why would it matter if nobody can prove
that there isn’t an afterlife? At best, asking somebody to provide
evidence that an afterlife doesn’t exist is an admission that
you don’t have any evidence to support your belief in an afterlife
in the first place and are relying entirely on wishful thinking.
Still with me? All right, here is your proof:


In order for there to be an afterlife, our consciousness must
be capable of surviving apart from our physical bodies (call
it a “soul” or a “spirit” or what have you).

And if our consciousness is capable of surviving apart from
our physical bodies, it can’t be generated by or produced by
or be wholly dependent on our physical bodies (and certainly
not by any one particular part of our bodies). We should, for
example, be able to damage or even replace a toe or an arm or
a lung or a heart and not have our consciousness be affected
(assuming we don’t die in the process).

And this is generally what we find to be the case, with one
glaring exception — our brains. Every other part of our body
can be damaged or even replaced without our consciousness being
affected, but not our brain. If our brains are damaged, our
entire personality can change. We become, in effect, completely
different persons. And, while practically any organ in the body
can be replaced without changing who we are (they can even transplant
faces now), does anybody imagine that if it were possible to
receive a brain transplant that our consciousness with the new
brain would match that of the previous brain?

Therefore, since it appears that our consciousness is inextricably
and indelibly linked to our physical brains, that would indicate
that our consciousness cannot exist independent of our bodies
and therefore cannot survive the death of our bodies. And if
our consciousnesses cannot exist without our bodies, then there
cannot be any such thing as an “afterlife.” Q.E.D.

And, there you go! What further proof could you possibly want?

OK, OK, so maybe this isn’t an absolute proof that there is
no such thing as an afterlife. After all, I suppose one could
come up with all sorts of ridiculous hypotheticals to explain
the known facts while still preserving the possibility of an
afterlife, such as, oh, I dunno, that our brains are just “receivers”
for our consciousness that is being broadcast from some other
dimensional plane (whatever the heck that means) and brain damage
is like what happens when a radio has a damaged antenna and
the signal gets all static-y or something. Or maybe there exists
some sort of all-powerful “immaterial pure spirit” (whatever
the heck that actually means) that somehow exists “outside of
time and space” (whatever the heck that actually means) that
for some unknown reason wants to make it seem as though our
brains create our consciousness for reasons of its own. You
get the idea. But the thing is, if you have to go to such ridiculous
lengths to provide for the mere possibility of an afterlife,
you’ve already abandoned rationality to such extent that you
might as well just throw in the towel and admit defeat anyway.
l***@florence.it
2024-04-12 12:28:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 08:56:01 -0300, James Warren
Post by James Warren
Barry Goldberg
Author of the "Common Sense Atheism" series of booksMar 25
Is there any scientific proof that after life, there is no heaven
or hell?
Well, yes. In fact there is a simple and blindingly-obvious
proof, but it’s not the sort of proof that many people are willing
to accept since it contradicts with their childhood indoctrination
and/or conflicts with what they really, really want to be true.
Before I present the proof, however, there are two important
The complete and utter lack of any consistent, objective evidence
for an afterlife is, in and of itself, evidence against an afterlife.
Not proof mind, you, but certainly evidence.
Seriously, if you don’t have any good evidence for an afterlife
in the first place, why would it matter if nobody can prove
that there isn’t an afterlife? At best, asking somebody to provide
evidence that an afterlife doesn’t exist is an admission that
you don’t have any evidence to support your belief in an afterlife
in the first place and are relying entirely on wishful thinking.
In order for there to be an afterlife, our consciousness must
be capable of surviving apart from our physical bodies (call
it a “soul” or a “spirit” or what have you).
And if our consciousness is capable of surviving apart from
our physical bodies, it can’t be generated by or produced by
or be wholly dependent on our physical bodies (and certainly
not by any one particular part of our bodies). We should, for
example, be able to damage or even replace a toe or an arm or
a lung or a heart and not have our consciousness be affected
(assuming we don’t die in the process).
And this is generally what we find to be the case, with one
glaring exception — our brains. Every other part of our body
can be damaged or even replaced without our consciousness being
affected, but not our brain. If our brains are damaged, our
entire personality can change. We become, in effect, completely
different persons. And, while practically any organ in the body
can be replaced without changing who we are (they can even transplant
faces now), does anybody imagine that if it were possible to
receive a brain transplant that our consciousness with the new
brain would match that of the previous brain?
Therefore, since it appears that our consciousness is inextricably
and indelibly linked to our physical brains, that would indicate
that our consciousness cannot exist independent of our bodies
and therefore cannot survive the death of our bodies. And if
our consciousnesses cannot exist without our bodies, then there
cannot be any such thing as an “afterlife.” Q.E.D.
And, there you go! What further proof could you possibly want?
OK, OK, so maybe this isn’t an absolute proof that there is
no such thing as an afterlife. After all, I suppose one could
come up with all sorts of ridiculous hypotheticals to explain
the known facts while still preserving the possibility of an
afterlife, such as, oh, I dunno, that our brains are just “receivers”
for our consciousness that is being broadcast from some other
dimensional plane (whatever the heck that means) and brain damage
is like what happens when a radio has a damaged antenna and
the signal gets all static-y or something. Or maybe there exists
some sort of all-powerful “immaterial pure spirit” (whatever
the heck that actually means) that somehow exists “outside of
time and space” (whatever the heck that actually means) that
for some unknown reason wants to make it seem as though our
brains create our consciousness for reasons of its own. You
get the idea. But the thing is, if you have to go to such ridiculous
lengths to provide for the mere possibility of an afterlife,
you’ve already abandoned rationality to such extent that you
might as well just throw in the towel and admit defeat anyway.
OK he's got his ideas but personally treatment of me, and others,
observed from childhood on by 'religious' folk, told me something
wasn't right :)
Gurpster
2024-04-13 12:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Warren
Barry Goldberg
Author of the "Common Sense Atheism" series of booksMar 25
Is there any scientific proof that after life, there is no heaven
or hell?
Well, yes. In fact there is a simple and blindingly-obvious
proof, but it’s not the sort of proof that many people are willing
to accept since it contradicts with their childhood indoctrination
and/or conflicts with what they really, really want to be true.
Before I present the proof, however, there are two important
The complete and utter lack of any consistent, objective evidence
for an afterlife is, in and of itself, evidence against an afterlife.
Not proof mind, you, but certainly evidence.
Seriously, if you don’t have any good evidence for an afterlife
in the first place, why would it matter if nobody can prove
that there isn’t an afterlife? At best, asking somebody to provide
evidence that an afterlife doesn’t exist is an admission that
you don’t have any evidence to support your belief in an afterlife
in the first place and are relying entirely on wishful thinking.
In order for there to be an afterlife, our consciousness must
be capable of surviving apart from our physical bodies (call
it a “soul” or a “spirit” or what have you).
And if our consciousness is capable of surviving apart from
our physical bodies, it can’t be generated by or produced by
or be wholly dependent on our physical bodies (and certainly
not by any one particular part of our bodies). We should, for
example, be able to damage or even replace a toe or an arm or
a lung or a heart and not have our consciousness be affected
(assuming we don’t die in the process).
And this is generally what we find to be the case, with one
glaring exception — our brains. Every other part of our body
can be damaged or even replaced without our consciousness being
affected, but not our brain. If our brains are damaged, our
entire personality can change. We become, in effect, completely
different persons. And, while practically any organ in the body
can be replaced without changing who we are (they can even transplant
faces now), does anybody imagine that if it were possible to
receive a brain transplant that our consciousness with the new
brain would match that of the previous brain?
Therefore, since it appears that our consciousness is inextricably
and indelibly linked to our physical brains, that would indicate
that our consciousness cannot exist independent of our bodies
and therefore cannot survive the death of our bodies. And if
our consciousnesses cannot exist without our bodies, then there
cannot be any such thing as an “afterlife.” Q.E.D.
And, there you go! What further proof could you possibly want?
OK, OK, so maybe this isn’t an absolute proof that there is
no such thing as an afterlife. After all, I suppose one could
come up with all sorts of ridiculous hypotheticals to explain
the known facts while still preserving the possibility of an
afterlife, such as, oh, I dunno, that our brains are just “receivers”
for our consciousness that is being broadcast from some other
dimensional plane (whatever the heck that means) and brain damage
is like what happens when a radio has a damaged antenna and
the signal gets all static-y or something. Or maybe there exists
some sort of all-powerful “immaterial pure spirit” (whatever
the heck that actually means) that somehow exists “outside of
time and space” (whatever the heck that actually means) that
for some unknown reason wants to make it seem as though our
brains create our consciousness for reasons of its own. You
get the idea. But the thing is, if you have to go to such ridiculous
lengths to provide for the mere possibility of an afterlife,
you’ve already abandoned rationality to such extent that you
might as well just throw in the towel and admit defeat anyway.
I wrote a paper on this for Philosophy 101 with Dr. Roland Pucetti
arguing that brain death is the end of the person. I think it was the
only A+ I ever got on any school work in my life.

John
HRM Resident
2024-04-14 18:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Warren
Barry Goldberg
snip <
While I agree with the post's premise (I don’t
know anything about souls or the afterlife), I would think there are better
sources than whoever Barry Goldberg is. There are two on a quick Google
search. One is a 22-year-
old TV actor and the other is a musician. Probably, there
are more. Whoever this is, he’s not a Nobel Prize winner.

What are his qualifications other than having an opinion?
Post by James Warren
Quora
snip <
From Wikipedia:

“In 2018, the People's Daily, the official newspaper of the
Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party,
reported on the potential for Chinese citizens to use the
platform to promote the image of China abroad. In 2020,
Ben Nimmo, a founder of the Atlantic Council's Digital
Forensic Research Lab, noted Quora's popularity as a
place to create fake accounts and plant disinformation. In
2023, Meta Platforms stated that Chinese law enforcement's
"Spamouflage" influence operation had targeted Quora.”

My point is not to argue whether there’s a soul or
not. And it’s not to shoot the messenger, whoever it is.

Based on what I know about Quora (confirmed by
Wikipedia) this cut and paste post has about the same
credibility as taking something from a nobody like me
on Usenet to prove an unprovable philosophical point.

Find this calibre of claim in something like Scientific
American and written after much peer review, and you will
get me pondering the topic. Since I don’t think this source is
credible, I will stick with “I don’t know.”
--
HRM Resident
James Warren
2024-04-14 18:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by James Warren
Barry Goldberg
snip <
While I agree with the post's premise (I don’t
know anything about souls or the afterlife), I would think there are better
sources than whoever Barry Goldberg is. There are two on a quick Google
search. One is a 22-year-
old TV actor and the other is a musician. Probably, there
are more. Whoever this is, he’s not a Nobel Prize winner.
What are his qualifications other than having an opinion?
Post by James Warren
Quora
snip <
“In 2018, the People's Daily, the official newspaper of the
Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party,
reported on the potential for Chinese citizens to use the
platform to promote the image of China abroad. In 2020,
Ben Nimmo, a founder of the Atlantic Council's Digital
Forensic Research Lab, noted Quora's popularity as a
place to create fake accounts and plant disinformation. In
2023, Meta Platforms stated that Chinese law enforcement's
"Spamouflage" influence operation had targeted Quora.”
My point is not to argue whether there’s a soul or
not. And it’s not to shoot the messenger, whoever it is.
Based on what I know about Quora (confirmed by
Wikipedia) this cut and paste post has about the same
credibility as taking something from a nobody like me
on Usenet to prove an unprovable philosophical point.
Find this calibre of claim in something like Scientific
American and written after much peer review, and you will
get me pondering the topic. Since I don’t think this source is
credible, I will stick with “I don’t know.”
You miss the point. It is not with the credentials of the writer but
with the quality of his facts and arguments. Perhaps I'm in a better
position to evaluate those than you since these things have been a long
term interest of mine. It is the kind of thing I might have written. Of
course, not having a Nobel prize, I have no credibility.

I agree that Quora has a lot of junk posts these days but occasionally
there is a gem, and this is one of those.

And, "I don't know" is a cop-out as it always is. The point is not
really whether an afterlife exists but whether there is any good reason
to believe it does. There isn't. So we accept, until proved otherwise,
that there is no afterlife. This can't ever be proved that neither can
the non existence of unicorns be proved. There is no reason to believe
in unicorns for the same reason.

Once again, a good argument is a good argument even if it comes from a
garbage collector or a Nobel laureate.
HRM Resident
2024-04-15 00:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Warren
And, "I don't know" is a cop-out as it always is.
(1) I said I agreed with the premise of the article, but I
see no evidence or proof. Just a good argument to support
an opinion. Maybe this fellow you found is right, and maybe
he is wrong. Who is he?

(2) Unless you know everything about everything, there
are things you don’t know. For example, unless you can tell me the second
you or I will die, you don’t know. Is not knowing that a cop-out? Who
shot JFK? Do you know?
I don’t. Is that a cop-out, too? Don’t be so silly! :-)
--
HRM Resident
James Warren
2024-04-15 10:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by James Warren
And, "I don't know" is a cop-out as it always is.
(1) I said I agreed with the premise of the article, but I
see no evidence or proof. Just a good argument to support
an opinion. Maybe this fellow you found is right, and maybe
he is wrong. Who is he?
It doesn't matter who he is. It is only his facts and arguments that
matter. As a good Bayesian, I conclude that the available evidence very
strongly supports the proposition that there is no afterlife.
Post by HRM Resident
(2) Unless you know everything about everything, there
are things you don’t know. For example, unless you can tell me the second
you or I will die, you don’t know. Is not knowing that a cop-out? Who
shot JFK? Do you know?
I don’t. Is that a cop-out, too? Don’t be so silly! :-)
These are different categories of things.
HRM Resident
2024-04-15 10:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Warren
These are different categories of things.
Translation: James can say he doesn’t know things,
and others can say they don’t know things, as long as
they agree with James on everything. What an odd
person!
--
HRM Resident
James Warren
2024-04-15 11:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by HRM Resident
Post by James Warren
These are different categories of things.
Translation: James can say he doesn’t know things,
and others can say they don’t know things, as long as
they agree with James on everything. What an odd
person!
You use "I don't know" as a way to dismiss an argument. It contains no
information. In Science, we don't prove things. We just accumulate facts
so that it becomes unreasonable not to accept a theory or fact of
nature. So, "I don't know" can be said of anything in science.
Evolution, for example, is a well established theory but it is not
proved with certainty. Rather than say "I don't know" it is much more
informative to indicate the degree of confidence one has in the
proposition. As for the afterlife, one can be very confident that it
does nor exist. That is the best that can be done. Saying "I don't know"
is just a tautology. It conveys no information. Absolute knowledge is
not possible.

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